AR15.Com Archives
 80% lower
hk45shooter  [Team Member]
1/2/2010 2:28:50 PM
I recently bought a 80% lower & was wondering if there was anyone close to the south east area of IA that has the jigs & or the time to guide me through the finishing of this lower?

I have read the tutorial at www.cncguns.com & am a little confused on a few of the steps. So I wanted to ask if some of you have finished a 80%.

ETA: This is the one I bought: http://www.tacticalmachining.com/products.php?pid=28

It says they are out of stock, but when I called to inquire about more they let me order 1 & said the next batch would be done at the end of next week, so that's when it will ship.
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TheMirage  [Member]
1/2/2010 5:17:04 PM
I was curious about this as well though I haven't bought one. The ones where you just drill a few holes seems easiest. I've seen some that require you to mill and thats a no go for little ol me.
Spart  [Member]
1/2/2010 6:06:39 PM
Anyone interested in hosting an 80% lower party? I thought about making one (or a couple) of these, but my confidence in my ability to do it right is a bit lacking.
hk45shooter  [Team Member]
1/2/2010 6:39:18 PM
Originally Posted By Spart:
Anyone interested in hosting an 80% lower party? I thought about making one (or a couple) of these, but my confidence in my ability to do it right is a bit lacking.


I'd surely be interested in participating, but don't have the equipment to host.
TheMirage  [Member]
1/2/2010 10:40:11 PM
That price is much better than this place:
http://www.joineroptics.com/product_info.php?products_id=31358509
rlarge10  [Team Member]
1/2/2010 11:10:44 PM
I don't know much about the 80% receivers, but it doesn't make sense to me when you can buy other lowers such as essential arms for $83. could someone explain the benefits to me?
septic-tank13  [Team Member]
1/3/2010 12:20:10 AM
Originally Posted By rlarge10:
I don't know much about the 80% receivers, but it doesn't make sense to me when you can buy other lowers such as essential arms for $83. could someone explain the benefits to me?


there aren't any. the only exception is the fact that you can do a few for yourself and enjoy it. there is no advantage financially. hell, i've seen some lowers that were $55 recently. by the time you mill them, and hard anodize them, you're already over budget...

but there is satisfaction in DIY. sometimes little else, but to each there own you know.

good luck.

Spart  [Member]
1/3/2010 2:49:04 AM
Also, having an unmarked lower. This can be a disadvantage as well. Try explaining to a LEO that you made a gun. Then after you've convinced them of this, try convincing them that it's legal to make a gun.

Of course, you could always mark it with something cool.

But I would agree that it's definitely not a cost thing.
live4fall  [Member]
1/3/2010 10:02:15 AM
You might of seen this site before, but he walks you through a 0% to a 100%.
Its intrusting to see how he does it. That what I used when I did mine.
And yes, its really not cost effective.

http://www.ray-vin.com/frtech.htm





jr
RyanHass  [Member]
1/3/2010 6:23:18 PM
Originally Posted By septic-tank13:
Originally Posted By rlarge10:
I don't know much about the 80% receivers, but it doesn't make sense to me when you can buy other lowers such as essential arms for $83. could someone explain the benefits to me?


there aren't any. the only exception is the fact that you can do a few for yourself and enjoy it. there is no advantage financially. hell, i've seen some lowers that were $55 recently. by the time you mill them, and hard anodize them, you're already over budget...

but there is satisfaction in DIY. sometimes little else, but to each there own you know.

good luck.



Well put. Self satisfaction.

The newer 80%'ers without the FCG pocket milled are not so nice to do without a mill and DRO.

The old 80%'ers are a snap with a drill press or mill.

TheMirage  [Member]
1/3/2010 9:10:16 PM
to say you made something yourself is very gratifying.
IOWOLF  [Member]
1/4/2010 6:52:14 AM
Advantage... You can slap anything on it without caliber or Barrel length restrictions.

Disclaimer... All NFA rules aply.
shack357  [Team Member]
1/5/2010 8:31:30 PM
Originally Posted By septic-tank13:
Originally Posted By rlarge10:
I don't know much about the 80% receivers, but it doesn't make sense to me when you can buy other lowers such as essential arms for $83. could someone explain the benefits to me?


there aren't any. the only exception is the fact that you can do a few for yourself and enjoy it. there is no advantage financially. hell, i've seen some lowers that were $55 recently. by the time you mill them, and hard anodize them, you're already over budget...

but there is satisfaction in DIY. sometimes little else, but to each there own you know.

good luck.



The benefit is a LEGAL non-serialized rifle with no paperwork, plus the satisfaction of being able to say you made it yourself. If there is no attraction to having a non papered rifle to you, buy the EA lower. Some people have a thrill at having a rifle with no SN, some don't care, and some don't think it's legal.
septic-tank13  [Team Member]
1/6/2010 6:27:19 AM
agreed. no paperwork. what the majority of people don't understand is the whole 4473 experience... and i think that actually leads to why folks gravitate towards a "no paperwork" scenario...

the vast majority of people i run through are of the opinion they're "on the map" somehow by filling out a 4473. when i run a NICS check or you're run at the sheriff's office for the purposes of permitting, the FBI is checking your record. period. they aren't told how many or what types of firearms you're buying, if any at all. that information is on the 4473 form, but IS NOT communicated to anyone - it stays with the FFL holder. if the FFL closes up shop the ATF says the FFL holder is responsible to remit all those forms back to ATF for storage. while i don't know for certain what they do with them, i'm assuming they keep them for the purposes of trace. i can assure you they don't have the time or resource to go through and snoop at what joe blow bought...

don't get me wrong, i'm none too happy any of us has to suffer even a piece of paper to be a gun owner, but to further the paranoia that coincides with a 4473 is something i'd like to dial back.

if "no paperwork" means that much to some folks, i say go right ahead. but don't do it under the premise you're going to save any money... you most certainly won't.

if any of you guys are doing this, i'd be interested in some pics. i'd like to see how you're coming out on them in terms of final fit and finish. good luck to you.
Ar-Bandit  [Member]
1/13/2010 12:34:31 AM
Originally Posted By shack357:
Originally Posted By septic-tank13:
Originally Posted By rlarge10:
I don't know much about the 80% receivers, but it doesn't make sense to me when you can buy other lowers such as essential arms for $83. could someone explain the benefits to me?


there aren't any. the only exception is the fact that you can do a few for yourself and enjoy it. there is no advantage financially. hell, i've seen some lowers that were $55 recently. by the time you mill them, and hard anodize them, you're already over budget...

but there is satisfaction in DIY. sometimes little else, but to each there own you know.

good luck.



The benefit is a LEGAL non-serialized rifle with no paperwork, plus the satisfaction of being able to say you made it yourself. If there is no attraction to having a non papered rifle to you, buy the EA lower. Some people have a thrill at having a rifle with no SN, some don't care, and some don't think it's legal.


While I think it should be our freedom to use these 80% lowers as we wish, what is to stop a felon from doing this and ordering the rest? Why haven't the retards banned these? I believe it when septic says its legal, he knows a lot about gun laws, but having an unregistered, non-serial numbered firearm that was produced after 1968 being legal sounds like bs. There isn't a federal law against that? The ATF says that this device is not a firearm, but what would they say if you drilled it out and assembled it? Then add the rest, including ammo, now is it a firearm? It is a firearm that was produced after the 1968 gun laws. If the feds can turn a potato gun into a felony I'm sure they can find a loophole of their own to convict you of something in this, even though it is legal in the first place according to them.

If I had money to blow I'd buy a couple of these just to "sit" on. Who knows what people may offer me after this loophole gets closed. Especially since I could sell them to felons without breaking any laws myself, right? This loophole will get closed...

Unless you want to stash an ar-15 or m-16 away without .gov knowing or want the satisfaction of making something yourself this would be ok. Otherwise I think this type of thing would attract people who either can't own one or someone who would want to break the law with it so they can throw it if needs be...






booger-hooker  [Moderator]
1/13/2010 6:03:26 AM
You can bend your own receiver for an AK and no serial # involved as it's intended for your own use and not to manufacture and sell. I'm going to have a receiver bent for my daughters AK and then will send it off to get her nickname and birthdate engraved in the side as a "would be" serial # to go with her AR's that have her name/other nickname and birthdate as their registered serial #'s.
septic-tank13  [Team Member]
1/13/2010 10:09:24 AM
you can build your own weapons all day long provided they are for your use. you can't build them and sell or give them away though. you also have to follow the law. so you can't build your own m16 in iowa as joe blow citizen, but you can build your own ar15... see the difference?

this isn't a loophole, and any doofus who'd spend the time to build an ar15 from an 80% lower just to circumvent somebody knowing he had one due to his right to bear arms having been removed is truly a dipshit... it would be much cheaper and easier to steal one, or buy black market...



your line of thought here troubles me. the right for joe blow to build his own weapon is inherent thus far and nobody should even mutter "loophole" when talking about it... good Lord... i can't be certain you're not just trying to ruffle my feathers, but i'll give you the benefit of the doubt. why don't you come to one of the dsm gunshow gatherings and visit with the group. nobody there is a lawyer, well not most of the time, but we try to adhere to all the rules and regs and many of us digest these rules and printed regs daily. we can help shed some light on law, how it affects us all, the circumstances under which these laws and regs came to pass, etc. that kind of reference would do you some good and you'd probably enjoy the relationships you'd start.

what do you say? got time to swing up and start asking some questions and visiting? information is power buddy...


Originally Posted By Ar-Bandit:
Originally Posted By shack357:
Originally Posted By septic-tank13:
Originally Posted By rlarge10:
I don't know much about the 80% receivers, but it doesn't make sense to me when you can buy other lowers such as essential arms for $83. could someone explain the benefits to me?


there aren't any. the only exception is the fact that you can do a few for yourself and enjoy it. there is no advantage financially. hell, i've seen some lowers that were $55 recently. by the time you mill them, and hard anodize them, you're already over budget...

but there is satisfaction in DIY. sometimes little else, but to each there own you know.

good luck.



The benefit is a LEGAL non-serialized rifle with no paperwork, plus the satisfaction of being able to say you made it yourself. If there is no attraction to having a non papered rifle to you, buy the EA lower. Some people have a thrill at having a rifle with no SN, some don't care, and some don't think it's legal.


While I think it should be our freedom to use these 80% lowers as we wish, what is to stop a felon from doing this and ordering the rest? Why haven't the retards banned these? I believe it when septic says its legal, he knows a lot about gun laws, but having an unregistered, non-serial numbered firearm that was produced after 1968 being legal sounds like bs. There isn't a federal law against that? The ATF says that this device is not a firearm, but what would they say if you drilled it out and assembled it? Then add the rest, including ammo, now is it a firearm? It is a firearm that was produced after the 1968 gun laws. If the feds can turn a potato gun into a felony I'm sure they can find a loophole of their own to convict you of something in this, even though it is legal in the first place according to them.

If I had money to blow I'd buy a couple of these just to "sit" on. Who knows what people may offer me after this loophole gets closed. Especially since I could sell them to felons without breaking any laws myself, right? This loophole will get closed...

Unless you want to stash an ar-15 or m-16 away without .gov knowing or want the satisfaction of making something yourself this would be ok. Otherwise I think this type of thing would attract people who either can't own one or someone who would want to break the law with it so they can throw it if needs be...








septic-tank13  [Team Member]
1/13/2010 10:11:08 AM
also, FWIW, i hope nobody here thinks i'd like to see no 80% lowers. i simply wanted to let you all know there is ZERO financial positive with this course of action. and for that matter, your guns aren't on the map anymore than they are when purchased through a dealer in reality...
SoftwareJanitor  [Member]
1/13/2010 12:00:14 PM
Originally Posted By Ar-Bandit:

While I think it should be our freedom to use these 80% lowers as we wish, what is to stop a felon from doing this and ordering the rest?


What is to stop a felon from buying an AR out of someone's trunk in a dark alley or stealing one? We shouldn't let our rights get trampled because of what a felon might do.

Why haven't the retards banned these?


If they did, it would basically cut off all individuals from being able to build or repair firearms. Frankly it just really isn't a problem. How many cases have you ever heard of that a prohibited person built their own firearm from an 80% lower and used it in a crime?

I believe it when septic says its legal, he knows a lot about gun laws, but having an unregistered, non-serial numbered firearm that was produced after 1968 being legal sounds like bs.


Well, it isn't. BATFE clearly states that individuals can make their own firearms (that are otherwise legal for them to possess, so no machine guns after 1986) and that while they recommend it, serial numbers are not required. Such firearms cannot be made with the intent of sale, although selling them is not outright prohibited.

There isn't a federal law against that? The ATF says that this device is not a firearm, but what would they say if you drilled it out and assembled it? Then add the rest, including ammo, now is it a firearm?


Yes, it is.

It is a firearm that was produced after the 1968 gun laws.


This is also correct, but not really relevant since the serial numbering requirement only applies to licensed FFL manufacturers.

If the feds can turn a potato gun into a felony I'm sure they can find a loophole of their own to convict you of something in this, even though it is legal in the first place according to them.


Yes, BATFE are bastards, and they can and do trump up bogus charges on flimsy technicalities and make up the rules as they go along... but you are probably not in much of any more danger of running afoul with them from completing an 80% lower than building an AR from a kit and a stripped 100% lower.

If I had money to blow I'd buy a couple of these just to "sit" on. Who knows what people may offer me after this loophole gets closed. Especially since I could sell them to felons without breaking any laws myself, right? This loophole will get closed...


This "loophole" has been around a long time. BATFE has known about people selling 80% lowers for a long time. They have harrassed a few people like KT Ordnance and JPFO over the years, but they show no signs that they intend to get the "loophole" closed any time soon.

Unless you want to stash an ar-15 or m-16 away without .gov knowing or want the satisfaction of making something yourself this would be ok. Otherwise I think this type of thing would attract people who either can't own one or someone who would want to break the law with it so they can throw it if needs be...


Don't be silly, its still illegal for a felon to complete an 80% lower or to possess one that has been completed. The "loophole" changes nothing for them really. There are a lots of easier ways that they can acquire firearms if they want to and frankly most criminals are inherently lazy, so they will take one of those easier ways.

Building from 80% lowers is for a few types of people basically...

People who love to DIY.
People who want the ultimate in customization (think custom rollmarks or engraving) you can't get with a finished lower.
People who want to do it to give the proverbial middle finger to BATFE and gun registration schemes.
The "tinfoil hat" types who are afraid of having anything "on the grid".
Ar-Bandit  [Member]
1/14/2010 12:11:38 AM
Wow, i should have known that would have invoked that response. Let me explain why I was asking all that... While I think we should all be able to own full auto without question, I sometimes struggle with understanding the "other sides" point of view. That is why I posted my questions, because I was confused and unsure of the laws and reasoning behind them. I in no way was supporting any of the questions or comments I made. I was just making a point. Yeah it is easier to get a gun "outta someones trunk", hell that is even easier than buying them legally in my opinion, but the government normally wants to keep tabs on stuff like this.

Septic - I have seen your guys table many times at the gunshows in des moines and sw iowa area. I want to sopport your movement and all but I just don't think there is anything that can be done about our situation in Iowa. See, our county is pretty much a red county. You need 8 hours of range time with an NRA approved and also sheriff office approved firearms instructor. Wow, well the hell do you even get that? The waiting list is in years, not months. So, I just gave up on the whole idea of getting a permit in this county. If I want to carry, I will. Only way anyone would find out is if I was SAVING my life, and I'd rather get the minor legal trouble that would bring, than to have my family have to bury me because I couldn't defend myself.

septic-tank13  [Team Member]
1/14/2010 8:14:34 AM
Originally Posted By Ar-Bandit:
Septic - I have seen your guys table many times at the gunshows in des moines and sw iowa area. I want to sopport your movement and all but I just don't think there is anything that can be done about our situation in Iowa. See, our county is pretty much a red county. You need 8 hours of range time with an NRA approved and also sheriff office approved firearms instructor. Wow, well the hell do you even get that? The waiting list is in years, not months. So, I just gave up on the whole idea of getting a permit in this county. If I want to carry, I will. Only way anyone would find out is if I was SAVING my life, and I'd rather get the minor legal trouble that would bring, than to have my family have to bury me because I couldn't defend myself.



that mentality will destroy us all... if you are genuinely firm in that belief and will not even consider another line of thought, do me a personal favor and stay away. however, if you're willing to learn more and make a consideration based on more information and a different line of thought, let me know. i'll share with you what i believe and what i know. then you are welcome and encouraged to double check my findings and research for yourself to make that decision... we're going to change this carry law for the better. i have no doubt. we aren't going to get it done without your help. you are essentially saying that since you don't believe it can be changed, you're willingly allowing the law to make you a law breaker and you are accepting it... if carrying as a means of protection isn't legal, the answer isn't carrying anyway. (on a side note, if you actually shot somebody to save your own skin, it may or may not be a weapons charge, which by the way would likely permanently remove your right to bear arms, but end up in a civil suit in which you'd probably be stripped of everything you thought you'd ever own and then some) the answer is changing the law. simple. you have to want this and you have to believe it. to be quite frank, there are only a handful of people that actually are hell bent on keeping the law this way. the more we push, the more we see lawmen, citizens, legislators, constituents, and everyday joe blow, speaking their piece about this.

you seem like a nice enough guy, but you're settling on some notions without the benefit of all the information. that is your choice, but there is more out here for you and for iowa than what is offered today. considering what many before us went through in terms of "fighting" and what they gave for their country, their families, and their future, becoming part of a positive change and seeking the best law to honor iowans is really a prerequisite, and little else...

septic-tank13  [Team Member]
1/14/2010 8:31:53 AM
Originally Posted By Ar-Bandit:
Wow, i should have known that would have invoked that response. Let me explain why I was asking all that... While I think we should all be able to own full auto without question, I sometimes struggle with understanding the "other sides" point of view. That is why I posted my questions, because I was confused and unsure of the laws and reasoning behind them. I in no way was supporting any of the questions or comments I made. I was just making a point. Yeah it is easier to get a gun "outta someones trunk", hell that is even easier than buying them legally in my opinion, but the government normally wants to keep tabs on stuff like this.


also... your statements, while not fair of me to totally sum up based on a few paragraphs, seem to reflect what i have to admit having been symptomatic of a successful liberal push over the last 20 years. the lib agenda has managed to transform and transmogrify the issue of all things weapons into a justification scenario. somewhere along the way we started to morph into a premise where when in doubt i had to prove my ability to be granted permission for arms rather than permission being granted automatically by default... take me as an example. i'm no felon. i'm just a dickhead. being a dickhead isn't enough to remove your right to bear arms. instead i go into my sheriffs office and have to ask for permission, i have to ask to be worthy of a permit, i have to be vetted by my sheriff, by my law, and by my state, for something i have automatically - rights... it used to be the other way around. i was expressed and given these courtesies by default, and should i do something, like commit a felony, i then would be disbarred my right. THAT IS THE WAY IT SHOULD BE AND SHOULD REMAIN.'

my point? i have these rights as a free born american. i have them by default, NOT by permission. i shouldn't be asking for them, they are mine to begin with. i lose them with bad behavior, not gain them with good behavior. i shouldn't be asking my sheriff if he thinks i'm a nice guy, he should be glad i'm not a bad guy and tickled i want the same local harmony he wants... it is as if we have forgotten due process somehow and we have to ask for our rights to be afforded us. no thanks. we've let this slip far enough, long enough. we're headed back to way things were intended and those in the way will be genuinely unhappy and probably trampled, and i'm ok with that...

so how does this relate to the OP? he has the right to buy a chunk of aluminum. he has the right to shape it, to build it, to transform it anyway he chooses within the law. that action, that option, and that decision is never to be called or considered a "loophole" and anyone who calls it that is either misinformed, just plain stupid, or not worthy of calling themselves an American.

$.02...

cavscouty  [Team Member]
1/14/2010 8:38:15 AM
Amen.
Spart  [Member]
1/15/2010 2:01:26 AM
A+

"That oughta be illegal..." <- NO
rlarge10  [Team Member]
1/15/2010 2:54:43 AM
Originally Posted By Ar-Bandit:
So, I just gave up on the whole idea of getting a permit in this county. If I want to carry, I will.


Ar-Bandit  [Member]
1/15/2010 12:17:05 PM
Sorry to argue the "other sides" point. My bad....
yammerschooner  [Member]
1/15/2010 6:14:58 PM
Breaking the law on purpose instead of trying to change it does seem sort of silly, but if that is the route you want to go, more power to you.


septic-tank13  [Team Member]
1/15/2010 6:45:54 PM
Originally Posted By Ar-Bandit:
Sorry to argue the "other sides" point. My bad....


dude... do you really want to use a crying towel now? i'm trying, with more patience that i usually demonstrate i might add, that while you're encouraged and welcome to ask the questions, the premise and point of view in which you ask them makes a difference.

i don't want you or anyone else to think asking questions is a poor idea. it is imperative. your understanding of the law, rights, and how laws are changed needs some work. no more, no less. the upshot is that this is america. you are blessed with what we call "public record" which allows you to read and learn this for yourself - at your leisure, on your terms. we have a tacked thread here so you can check out links to the laws and various regs. granted, this is no easy task and tends to make your eyes crossed, but... it is available. the perspective actually comes with association - where you travel and whom you spend time with. some are quicker routes to a working knowledge of the law than others.

always default to the constitution. let it be your basic guide. the rest will fall into place.

don't get miffed or discouraged. it is within your power to gain more knowledge.

now... go buy a bunch of 80% before they close the loophole.

























































































sorry. couldn't help it...
Ar-Bandit  [Member]
1/16/2010 1:54:36 AM
Seriously dude, grow up.
rlarge10  [Team Member]
1/16/2010 5:44:09 AM
oh boy
booger-hooker  [Moderator]
1/16/2010 6:47:42 AM
+ =
rlarge10  [Team Member]
1/16/2010 7:37:34 AM
dang booger, you been been workin on your math skills?! i think you just came up with the correct formula
hk45shooter  [Team Member]
1/16/2010 10:10:48 AM
Can I get a lock on this thread? It has veered completely of course of my purpose of starting it, which is why I have not posted till now.

There is obviously nobody willing to help a person learn here.
TheMirage  [Member]
1/16/2010 1:36:48 PM
I think using some google foo would be your best route. As for what you get out of completing an 80% lower is on you. Many will think it's fool hearty, others will think you a patriot. Sorry you didn't get what you want here. Thats the nature of the web. I've posted asking for serious responses to only get one response, 'use the search tool'. To this day no matter what I type and its criteria I can't get search to work for me so I accept it.
booger-hooker  [Moderator]
1/16/2010 3:02:55 PM
I tried to reply earlier and my message got fragged as soon as I clicked on Submit so I'll type a shorter version.

I'm not going to lock this thread but it should just fade away if you don't have anything constructive to add to the discussion...if the OP is not getting pertinent information or answers to his questions you should not hijack this with personal tirades but instead start your own Topic as has been done before. If you have anything pertinent to add to the OP Topic feel free to post it here. Thanks guys.
septic-tank13  [Team Member]
1/17/2010 12:08:28 PM
Originally Posted By hk45shooter:
Can I get a lock on this thread? It has veered completely of course of my purpose of starting it, which is why I have not posted till now.

There is obviously nobody willing to help a person learn here.


sorry for the highjack dude. i owe you one.

i have a source for 80% lowers if you need it.

Jusbo47  [Member]
2/1/2010 2:26:00 PM
I had a set of jigs from CNC Gunsmithing but sold them.
will post a pic of my lower when it comes back from Victor at US Annodizing.
I made it a partial fence to complete my model 607 build, will be using my Colt slickside upper with it, 16 in barrel though(dont want to go through the SBR hassle).

If I can help in anyway just let me know.

I did it for the experince and fun, not to try to hide anything from anyone.
booger-hooker  [Moderator]
2/2/2010 7:14:22 AM
That will look sweet when you're finished with it.
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