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 PA CCW on Private Property
bushy2112  [Member]
2/26/2005 7:28:04 PM
I have a question I hope you guys can help me with. I understand in PA you can not carry in schools and court houses but what about private property which display a no firearms policy.

I joined the YMCA and they have a no firearms policy. Is it against the law to cary a firearm there or is just their policy. If it is just there policy I think I will take my chances but if this is a legal thing I may just keep my gun in the car.

Thanks
TonyF  [Team Member]
2/26/2005 7:54:32 PM
It's not a law, it's YMCA policy. If they discover you're in possession which violates their policy, they are within their rights to ask you to leave. The details of the policy will likely determine whether or not they revoke your membership. If you refuse to leave, they can summon the police and IIRC you could be arrested and charged with criminal trespassing.
LastDefender  [Team Member]
2/26/2005 9:05:22 PM
You have an NJ concealed carry permit? Do tell?

Regards,
Gary
Raulin  [Team Member]
2/27/2005 9:50:28 AM
At the university that I attend and teach classes, the university has a no firearms on campus policy if not LRO. I read through the fine print of the matter on the university's police department website for details, and all they do is re-state the university's policy.

In the last four years I have yet to see a no 'firearms beyond this point' or 'gun free campus'. So if it isn't posted, so I have kept on carrying concealed like the card says I should.
Tack  [Member]
2/27/2005 10:24:55 AM

Originally Posted By TonyF:
It's not a law, it's YMCA policy. If they discover you're in possession which violates their policy, they are within their rights to ask you to leave. The details of the policy will likely determine whether or not they revoke your membership. If you refuse to leave, they can summon the police and IIRC you could be arrested and charged with criminal trespassing.



The 3 states that I have lived in, and the state where my corporate office is, have the right to post and enforce "No guns on premisise" policies. It's their property!

Think of it this way....Wouldn't you want to have the right to say who can carry inside your living room. I damned sure do.

Tack
bushy2112  [Member]
2/27/2005 8:54:00 PM
Thanks for the info. I moved over the boarder into PA so sorry no NJ CCW news.

Tack: I have a right to carry a gun where ever legal. I can argue the "right" thing but I will let that go. I think you have to think of why you have a ccw permit to start with. I carry my gun to protect myself and family. I believe my right to carry trumps someones right to tell me to disarm for no reason other then they are afraid of firearms. With that said if the state says to disarm I will because I do not want to get locked up for just conceling a gun. I know some would say why not just carry all the time but this is how I draw the line.

Oh and I would not have any issue with anyone carrying a gun in my home.
TonyF  [Team Member]
2/27/2005 10:12:32 PM

Originally Posted By bushy2112:
Thanks for the info. I moved over the boarder into PA so sorry no NJ CCW news.

I believe my right to carry trumps someones right to tell me to disarm for no reason other then they are afraid of firearms.



Bushy,

In *someone's right to disarm you cuz they're afraid of guns* we're talking about property rights which entails your right to do what you want on or with your property. One right can't trump another.
bushy2112  [Member]
2/28/2005 6:29:47 PM
Tony

I understand your point although I do not know if I agree. I can understand going over a buddy's house and them saying "I would rather you not carry here." That is there right and I understand that. But as far as the Y where I am a member or a store I think those are public places. Yes private property but a public place. Can a store say no African Americans are allowed here?
I just hate to hear corprarations trying to be PC and infringing on my right to carry. I just think laws should limit where we can or can not carry, period. What point is there in carrying if you have to check the store policy before I walk into any store.

Just my 2 cents. I understand if you disagree but this is what I believe.
fight4yourrights  [Team Member]
3/1/2005 12:26:42 PM

Originally Posted By TonyF:

Bushy,

In *someone's right to disarm you cuz they're afraid of guns* we're talking about property rights which entails your right to do what you want on or with your property. One right can't trump another.




I would argue that my right to safety and security trumps their private property rights WHEN they are open to the public.


Unless they are willing to be legally responsible for my safety and pay for the REAL, armed security necessary to accomplish this, I don't see where they have the right to tell me I have to subject myself to unnecessary risks.
RAVYN  [Member]
3/1/2005 12:58:41 PM

Originally Posted By fight4yourrights:

Originally Posted By TonyF:

Bushy,

In *someone's right to disarm you cuz they're afraid of guns* we're talking about property rights which entails your right to do what you want on or with your property. One right can't trump another.




I would argue that my right to safety and security trumps their private property rights WHEN they are open to the public.


Unless they are willing to be legally responsible for my safety and pay for the REAL, armed security necessary to accomplish this, I don't see where they have the right to tell me I have to subject myself to unnecessary risks.



I agree
shaggy  [Team Member]
3/1/2005 1:05:32 PM
Bushy-

I hate to break it to you, but it really doesn't matter what you think is right or what you believe. The law is the law, and a private property owner (even if its a place open to the public like a store) can refuse to allow you on their property or demand you not carry on their property. If you refuse to comply you can be charged ith tresspasing. TonyF is correct.

If you're carrying and enter a store, you merely have to read and comply with any obvious and easily visable signage or requests by the property owner or their agents. If you don't see a sign, you're free to carry in the establishment until the owner or an agent thereof tells you otherwise. (And if you're carrying concealed, they really shouldn't see it or know you're carrying anyway)

F4YR's point is well taken that they should be responsible if they choose to require you to disarm, however, with full knowledge of their policy you can simply leave if you do not feel safe there unarmed. There is no one pointing a gun at your head, forcing you to stay in the establishment unarmed. Once you know the policy, you can either disarm and stay (and accept the potential consequences of that choice) , or remain armed and leve the premises.
bushy2112  [Member]
3/1/2005 1:45:50 PM
Here is the bottom line. I am going to carry where ever I can minuse schools court houses and federal government offices. Any store or club that has policy against carrying so be it. If on the off chance they find out I am carrying I will leave the location without argument. That will keep me out of trouble as far as I understand the laws.
TonyF  [Team Member]
3/1/2005 5:34:04 PM

Originally Posted By fight4yourrights:

Originally Posted By TonyF:

Bushy,

In *someone's right to disarm you cuz they're afraid of guns* we're talking about property rights which entails your right to do what you want on or with your property. One right can't trump another.




I would argue that my right to safety and security trumps their private property rights WHEN they are open to the public.

Unless they are willing to be legally responsible for my safety and pay for the REAL, armed security necessary to accomplish this, I don't see where they have the right to tell me I have to subject myself to unnecessary risks.



FFYR,

I don't disagree but we have the right not to patronize their establishment. I don't believe many of these policies are made by anti-gun corporate executives. Rather, it is the legal departments. They care more about their liability than our security. Shop and dine, etc., eslewhere.
RAVYN  [Member]
3/2/2005 8:35:00 AM
There are ways around some of this stuff.

If there is a sign prohibiting a weapon at the front door or main entrance, look for another entry. That one may not have a sign. Went to PNC park last year to watch a ball game. Sign at main entrance says no weapons....went to another entry..no sign..good to go. If they find out you are carrying, they can still ask you to leave but there won't be a trespassing charge.

When it comes to my and my families safety, I have no qualms about breaking some laws. As long as you understand that there are ramifications to it.

DavidC  [Team Member]
3/2/2005 8:53:21 AM
In PA the bottom line is this; a "no firearms" sign/policy/whatever does not have the force of law behind it, unlike states that have CCW laws that explicitly grant authority to post such signs.

Keep it concealed, and the worst that can happen is they ask you to leave should you be so tacky as to get made.

fight4yourrights  [Team Member]
3/2/2005 5:43:06 PM

Originally Posted By RAVYN:


If there is a sign prohibiting a weapon at the front door or main entrance, look for another entry.



Why bother? You could just argue you were behind a big person walking in and couldn't see the sign. Let them prove you did.



When it comes to my and my families safety, I have no qualms about breaking some laws.




Luckily, we aren't talking about breaking laws, we're talking about violating the wishes of a business.


I carry in the West Manchester mall in York every time I go there. They do have signs that state no weapons. It's buried as #14 in a small sign with lot's of other verbage.

IF I ever got caught carrying, I will leave when asked. I will ask to speak to the manager and let them know that if told to leave, I won't be back and my business goes with me. I will also tell them I will advertise that fact to everyone I can.

We'll see if the fat lady sings then.
RAVYN  [Member]
3/2/2005 8:16:51 PM

Originally Posted By fight4yourrights:

Originally Posted By RAVYN:


If there is a sign prohibiting a weapon at the front door or main entrance, look for another entry.



Why bother? You could just argue you were behind a big person walking in and couldn't see the sign. Let them prove you did.



When it comes to my and my families safety, I have no qualms about breaking some laws.




Luckily, we aren't talking about breaking laws, we're talking about violating the wishes of a business.


I carry in the West Manchester mall in York every time I go there. They do have signs that state no weapons. It's buried as #14 in a small sign with lot's of other verbage.

IF I ever got caught carrying, I will leave when asked. I will ask to speak to the manager and let them know that if told to leave, I won't be back and my business goes with me. I will also tell them I will advertise that fact to everyone I can.

We'll see if the fat lady sings then.



hey,...no prob here.
A different road to the same destination.