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 Hirtenberger 9mm+P+ L7A1
32ACP  [Member]
1/6/2006 8:53:33 PM
Does anyone know whether or not this ammo is OK in a Glock, or any 9mm handgun?

I've read not to use it in handguns.....then I read about folks who do and it's fine....and I just bought a case of Winchester Ranger 9mm+P+ 127gr that I shoot out of my Glocks.

If anyone knows--can they also provide links/sources for info?

Thanks!
WesDesRat  [Member]
1/6/2006 9:05:50 PM
I do not have a link to the info, but this stuff is significantly higher pressure than even the 127gr +P+ Ranger stuff. The BATF had a warning out on this stuff, and someone can probably link you to it. Try a google ssearch with BATF and L7A1. It was intended for use in Sterling SMG's in Arctic conditons and is NOT reccomended for use in 9mm pistols, even the Glocks.

I have heard of folks running this in Glocks, but I wouldn't chance it.

ETA what I could find with a short Google search: Hirtenberger AG WARNING: Austrian ammunition maker Hirtenberger AG has put the word out concerning a quantity of its 9x19 mm ammunition that is "unique for use in any handgun." According to a November 7, 2003 BATF Industry News release. "This ammunition was loaded to produce pressures far in excess of that intended for use in handguns. This ammunition should not be fired in any weapon other than what it was designed for." The ammunition was produced for the British Ministry of Defense from 1990 through 1992 for use in the L7A1 "under adverse conditions" and carries the "L7A1" designation, as well as submachine guns or the semi automatic versions of such weapons. The ammunition covered by this warning can be identified by the following head stamps: 12 o’clock position: "HP" 3 o’clock position: "90, 91, or 92" 6 o’clock position: "L7A1" 9 o’clock position: "a cross within a circle (NATO cross Å). (Information from the International Ammunition Association, Inc.)
SBR7_11  [Team Member]
1/6/2006 9:35:55 PM

Originally Posted By 32ACP:
Does anyone know whether or not this ammo is OK in a Glock, or any 9mm handgun?

I've read not to use it in handguns.....then I read about folks who do and it's fine....and I just bought a case of Winchester Ranger 9mm+P+ 127gr that I shoot out of my Glocks.

If anyone knows--can they also provide links/sources for info?

Thanks!



A club I used to be a member at back in 1990 had a GLOCK rep out, and he said the Glock barrels would handle "subgun ammo", the barrels were really tough. I have a G17, but I have never shot any really heavy ammo in it, other than M-882 (9mm NATO).

YMMV
32ACP  [Member]
1/6/2006 9:46:06 PM
Wasn't CorBon 115gr +P+ "THE" round a few years ago?

The more I find on the Hirt stuff, the less likely I am to buy it....I would guess a 124gr +P+ will have a greater pressure than 115gr+P+.....or, I may be wrong...

One old thread on GLockTalk says 2 Glocks and 1 SIG were trashed by the Hirt stuff. Heck I won't even use PD ammo in my AR's.....
Phil_in_Seattle  [Team Member]
1/6/2006 9:53:13 PM

Department of the Treasury
ATF Office of Public Information

For Immediate Release FY-97-6
Contact: Vickie Saunders Date: November 7, 1996

HAZARDOUS AMMUNITION

Washington--The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms (ATF) has been advised by Hirtenberger AG, Hirtenberg, Austria, that certain 9Xl9 mm
caliber ammunition produced by Hirtenberger is unsafe for use in any handgun.

The ammunition, designated L7A1 and produced ln the years 1990 through 1992, was produced for the British Ministry of Defense specifically for use in submachineguns under adverse conditions. The ammunition was loaded to produce pressures far in excess of that intended for use in handguns.

The manufacturer advises that up to 12 million rounds of this ammunition has recently been sold on the world surplus market. The ammunition can be identified by the following head stamp located on the bottom of the cartridge case

12 O'clock position: HP
3 O'clock position: 90, 91, or 92
6 O'clock position: L7Al
9 O'clock position: the marking of a cross within a circle

This ammunition should not be fired.

We are not aware of any of this ammunition being imported into the United States. ATF will take action to prevent the commercial importation of this
ammunition.

For additional information, contact, Mary Jo Hughes, Chief, Firearms and
Explosives Imports, (202) 927-8320.




Hirtenberg L7A1 test results
Conditions: Partial overcast, 70 deg F., light winds, elevation 7000 ft. (NE of Flagstaff, AZ)

Equipment:
Oehler chronograph with proof channel.
Sterling SMG, 6.5” barrel
Browning Hi-Power, 4.7” barrel

Velocity data (fps) are reported in this order:
High velocity, low velocity, velocity spread, average velocity and standard deviation.
10 rounds fired per group.

Fired in the Sterling SMG (semi auto):

L7A1 Hirtenberg, 124 gr. FMJ

1474 1421 53 1450 17

Federal American Eagle, 123 gr FMJ

1197 1159 38 1178 15

S&B 115 gr. FMJ

1306 1274 32 1289 9

Canadian WWII, MM45, 115 gr. FMJ

1402 1321 81 1367 27

Winchester WWII, WRA 42, 115 gr. FMJ

1332 1277 96 1345 27

Federal 147 gr. JHP

1072 1028 44 1054 14

For comparison, these were done with a T-series Hi Power:

Federal American Eagle, 123 gr FMJ

1070 1108 38 1088 16

Canadian WWII, MM45, 115 gr. FMJ

1247 1279 32 1268 11

nvcdl  [Member]
1/6/2006 10:33:31 PM
This stuff has been on market for quite a while - I shot some of this stuff in my G19. It was pretty hot. I think it is OK for Glocks. It was too hot for a friends UZI - over drove the bolt and caused the sub-gun to go out of time and jam unless it was fired in very short bursts.
ph713  [Team Member]
1/6/2006 11:19:28 PM

For comparison, the Winchester RA9TA (127gr +P+) that the original poster refers to is specced by Winchester to have a Muzzle Velocity of 1250 fps, versus the 1450 shown in the quoted tests above for 124gr Hirt. I'd say that sounds like a significant difference. On the other hand, I would probably bet my life that it would work just fine in a G19/17/34, since they really seem to eat up just about anything. But I don't know if I'd choose to subject my pistol to thousands of rounds of the stuff, it's bound to accelerate wear.

RA9TA or even better the standard-pressure 147gr RA9T is probably a much better defensive/carry round, and I'm sure you can find some standard-pressure ammo to plink with that's close enough in price to this Hirt junk that it's not worth taking the risk. So why bother with the Hirt stuff?

gotm4  [Team Member]
1/6/2006 11:27:46 PM
I've shot LOTS a little over 10K rounds of the Hirtenberger so-called subgun ammo hrough my Gen 1 G17 (it had a non captured recoil spring assy) it didn't break anything and was decently accurate.

My USPSA (IPSC) load right now is very high pressure 40,000psi plus but very slow (a 147gr going 855-900fps) using VV N320 powder. Runs fine in a stock Glock or KKM barrel.
ph713  [Team Member]
1/6/2006 11:36:40 PM

Originally Posted By gotm4:
I've shot LOTS a little over 10K rounds of the Hirtenberger so-called subgun ammo hrough my Gen 1 G17 (it had a non captured recoil spring assy) it didn't break anything and was decently accurate.

My USPSA (IPSC) load right now is very high pressure 40,000psi plus but very slow (a 147gr going 855-900fps) using VV N320 powder. Runs fine in a stock Glock or KKM barrel.



Why the "very high pressure" yet so slow? Is it a matter of desiring a non-standard burn rate for some reason or other? Win RA9T is not considered overpressure, yet the spec sheet says 147 gr @ 990fps.
gotm4  [Team Member]
1/6/2006 11:48:19 PM

Originally Posted By ph713:

Originally Posted By gotm4:
I've shot LOTS a little over 10K rounds of the Hirtenberger so-called subgun ammo hrough my Gen 1 G17 (it had a non captured recoil spring assy) it didn't break anything and was decently accurate.

My USPSA (IPSC) load right now is very high pressure 40,000psi plus but very slow (a 147gr going 855-900fps) using VV N320 powder. Runs fine in a stock Glock or KKM barrel.



Why the "very high pressure" yet so slow? Is it a matter of desiring a non-standard burn rate for some reason or other? Win RA9T is not considered overpressure, yet the spec sheet says 147 gr @ 990fps.



Undersize die with a 147gr ZERO loaded with 3.3gr of VV N320 with Federal primers. This load isn't in any of the load data. Some people I know are even using N310. The undersize die is used to stop bullet setback. High pressure doesn't always mean high velocity and this is 1 example of that. BTW I guarantee RA9T isn't using VV N320.............hint, hint.........look at the burn rates..............Burn rate and bullet weight has everything to do with how it feels.
ph713  [Team Member]
1/7/2006 12:59:54 AM

Originally Posted By gotm4:

Originally Posted By ph713:

Originally Posted By gotm4:
I've shot LOTS a little over 10K rounds of the Hirtenberger so-called subgun ammo hrough my Gen 1 G17 (it had a non captured recoil spring assy) it didn't break anything and was decently accurate.

My USPSA (IPSC) load right now is very high pressure 40,000psi plus but very slow (a 147gr going 855-900fps) using VV N320 powder. Runs fine in a stock Glock or KKM barrel.



Why the "very high pressure" yet so slow? Is it a matter of desiring a non-standard burn rate for some reason or other? Win RA9T is not considered overpressure, yet the spec sheet says 147 gr @ 990fps.



Undersize die with a 147gr ZERO loaded with 3.3gr of VV N320 with Federal primers. This load isn't in any of the load data. Some people I know are even using N310. The undersize die is used to stop bullet setback. High pressure doesn't always mean high velocity and this is 1 example of that. BTW I guarantee RA9T isn't using VV N320.............hint, hint.........look at the burn rates..............Burn rate and bullet weight has everything to do with how it feels.



I don't know enough about reloading to follow you at this point. Are you saying that by using a faster-burning powder you can get the same velocity but with more chamber pressure and less felt recoil?
TraumaLevel1  [Team Member]
1/7/2006 1:05:48 AM
+P ok for hand guns
+P+ for sub MGs only
jonathon  [Member]
1/7/2006 3:29:26 AM
Bump up the recoil spring a tad in the Glock, it'll handle the pressure as long as it doesn't beat the crap out of the frame in doing so... Good recoil spring will also insure it goes fully into battery.

Glocks and Rugers are about the only pistols I'd shoot that stuff in.
leid  [Team Member]
1/7/2006 9:24:36 AM
Hi guys,
If someone knows how to make this link hot, please do so.
Carey
http://ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=16&t=253408
32ACP  [Member]
1/7/2006 12:25:55 PM
Can anyone who owns some of the L7A1 give the projectile a magnet test? One place I read about this stuff said "the steel guilding metal jacket greatly accelerates barrel wear...." which sounds a little goofy.

Can anyone comment on this factoid?
dpmmn  [Team Member]
1/7/2006 12:27:29 PM

Originally Posted By leid:
Hi guys,
If someone knows how to make this link hot, please do so.
Carey
ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=16&t=253408





Done
Rockdoc  [Team Member]
1/7/2006 12:42:50 PM

Originally Posted By 32ACP:
Can anyone who owns some of the L7A1 give the projectile a magnet test? One place I read about this stuff said "the steel guilding metal jacket greatly accelerates barrel wear...." which sounds a little goofy.

Can anyone comment on this factoid?



Fact: L7A1 gilding metal over steel jacket.

DIHBS: Steel jacketed bullets greatly accelerate barrel wear -BS Barrel wear is mostly throat erosion due to the hot gasses.

DIHBS - pronounced 'dibs' Dis-Information Highway BS.
32ACP  [Member]
1/7/2006 5:37:32 PM
So, this round has a soft steel jacket....I don't see BATFE concerned about alleged AP issues....