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 Ar pistol to riffle and back to pistol again question.
4schitzangiggles  [Team Member]
12/2/2009 6:33:27 PM
I didn't want to hijack the other thread so I'll ask this here.

If I build my stripped lower as a pistol and at a later date I decide to put a stock and a 16" or longer barrel on it can I go back to a pistol configuration ever again? The reason I am confused is I have seen those conversions for the Glock"s and 1911 that have a stock and a 16"barrel and they seem to be OK with the ATF but I have been told if I do this with my AR stripped lowers it is a good way to increase my dogs mortality rate.
torozmaster  [Member]
12/2/2009 12:57:20 PM
Once you make the pistol a rifle- you can not go pistol again.
-JC-  [Moderator]
12/2/2009 1:05:43 PM
Your Question is better suited for the AR15 Pistol Section, but I'm sure other FFL dealers will have no problem discussing it.

This issue has been hashed and re-hashed for a few years.

People always cited the Thompson/Center ruling that states you can go back and forth, but just recently, ATF has been issuing letters saying that once a rifle ALWAYS a rifle on the AR15 platform. So YES, you can build a stripped receiver into anything, consider it gender neutral and you get to pick, that's why the 4473 form has "OTHER" on it since last year, so they can differentiate what is being sold.
(Also they would like to be able to pinpoint if a dealer is buying stripped lowers and building them into rifles and pistols without paying excise taxes.)

I normally tell my customers that they can build whatever they want on a stripped lower, but if they want to do a pistol, do it first because ATF may or may not issue official statements about designation at a later date. like I've said, I've read a few letters in the pistol section stating that once a pistol is properly converted to a rifle on the AR15 PLATFORM, without breaking NFA law or otherwise, then the rifle CANNOT go back to being a pistol.

Now, granted I'm not in the mood to dig up the letter, but if you want me to move this topic, I can do that for you, and let the actual letter addressee chime in with his foresight.

The Argument is that Thompson/Center won their case, but that was a different weapon platform, and the two do not apply to each other. Now weather or not I agree with them, doesn't matter here, but like I've said, take the safe route and try to avoid any gray area case law.
4schitzangiggles  [Team Member]
12/2/2009 6:25:27 PM
Sorry about being in the wrong forum if you could move it that would be great.
How would they know if I went back and forth?
-JC-  [Moderator]
12/2/2009 6:33:12 PM
I'll move it now...


AS for them not knowing, well, Nobody can say how they check those things.
4schitzangiggles  [Team Member]
12/2/2009 7:11:34 PM
Gotcha
dirtbikesandguns  [Member]
12/2/2009 8:39:43 PM
Originally Posted By 4schitzangiggles:
I didn't want to hijack the other thread so I'll ask this here.

If I build my stripped lower as a pistol and at a later date I decide to put a stock and a 16" or longer barrel on it can I go back to a pistol configuration ever again? The reason I am confused is I have seen those conversions for the Glock"s and 1911 that have a stock and a 16"barrel and they seem to be OK with the ATF but I have been told if I do this with my AR stripped lowers it is a good way to increase my dogs mortality rate.


If you SBR it......you can run it any damm way you want.................24" barrel down to a 5" barrel, any length with a stock or a pistol buffer tube. (but a pistol w/ a 24" barrel would be, well, Dirty Harry-ish?)
ToeTag  [Member]
12/2/2009 9:16:54 PM
Originally Posted By torozmaster:
Once you make the pistol a rifle- you can not go pistol again.


Wrong!

4schitzangiggles  [Team Member]
12/2/2009 9:48:05 PM
Originally Posted By ToeTag:
Originally Posted By torozmaster:
Once you make the pistol a rifle- you can not go pistol again.


Wrong!



Can you provide any documentation? I really like my dog.
spike6789  [Team Member]
12/3/2009 8:24:39 AM

Originally Posted By -JC-:


AS for them not knowing, well, Nobody can say how they check those things.

"They" are always watching.
FIGJAM  [Member]
12/3/2009 9:04:45 AM
One a rifle made it can never have a barrel of less than 16" or be less than 26" overall unless it is registered as a short barreled rifle per the National Firearms Act of 1934 as codified in IRS Code Title 26 Chapter 53.

selphb  [Team Member]
12/3/2009 11:21:44 AM
From what I have read it seems to be on the honor system pertaining to switching back and forth between pistol and rifle configuration‘s; whose to say once you bought your stripped receiver on how you built it; it’s not like you have to register it right, another stupid law passed by ATF to put into the gray area.
Dferg10  [Member]
12/3/2009 1:23:24 PM
You cannot go from rifle back to pistol. Once a stock is attached to that AR 15 receiver, it cannot legally be put into pistol config ever again. The guy above who said WRONG to that concept is either uninformed or looking to screw you and anyone else who relies on him BIG TIME> You could go from pistol to rifle and then via form 1 to an SBR (assuming you live in an jusrisdiction that allows SBr's). With an SBR, there is nothing to stop you from temporarily taking the stock off and firing the weapon as a pistol, but why would you do that after going through the cost and trouble to get approval to add the stock?

The chance this would become an issue or that you would be caught and prosectued may be remote, but who knows. You ask how they would prove this and you may be right, but you may also be wrong. Are there any witnesses who would testify against you- maybe not. I assume you wouldn't be foolish enough to take pictures (pistol, later date rifle, later date pistol again) that could later prove you violated the law- right? Is it possible this post could become as evidence against you? Yes- but not likely. If you are a gambling man- you can roll the dice. But why do that? Another lower is not much money and is certainly cheaper than hiring a guy like me to defend you. When you compare the cost of a new lower to a possibl;e 10 years in Club Fed, the answer should be clear. Just beware of those who may send you down the wrong path with WRONG information.
kevins_garage  [Member]
12/3/2009 2:10:37 PM
In the "Is TC Contender legal" thread, the below ATF letter is posted and it seems that ATF has created a potential loophole such that if one were to buy an AR kit that is similar to the TC kit, they could go back and forth between pistol and rifle all day long. All we need is someone or a few people to start supplying such kits. Good luck to anyone that wants to try and sort this all out.

4schitzangiggles  [Team Member]
12/3/2009 5:35:45 PM
I just don't want to get my dog shot for having a pistol ar built out of the same lot of lowers that I have built rifles out of. Sound like all I would need is some dyslexic asshat fudd to "think" he remembers that my pistol SN# XXXXXXX1269 was a rifle at one point and have Animal Control show up and neuter my dog with some hi-velocity
lead and take all of my toys

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vermont2nd  [Team Member]
12/3/2009 5:47:51 PM
Originally Posted By ToeTag:
Originally Posted By torozmaster:
Once you make the pistol a rifle- you can not go pistol again.


Wrong!



Sorry, you are the one who is wrong.

Once you convert an AR pistol to a rifle, it is a rifle from that point on. That said, you could SBR it in order to have a barrel less than 16" again.
Shizzlemah  [Team Member]
12/5/2009 3:44:19 PM
Originally Posted By ToeTag:
Originally Posted By torozmaster:
Once you make the pistol a rifle- you can not go pistol again.


Wrong!



Your statement of 'wrong' is incorrect. ATF's standpoint is that pistol to rifle is okay, rifle to pistol is not. Rifle to Pistol can only legally be done by making a SBR (or but buying a T/C?)

The pistol to rifle change is unregulated - as long as you add the barrel FIRST before the shoulder stock to stay clear of making a SBR during the conversion.

Rifle to pistol is forbidden in a sneaky manner under the NFA's definition of a SBR. A SBR includes a "weapon made from a rifle". So once it is a rifle if you make it into anything else, it is now categorized as a SBR. No problems doing it after you get your form 1 back, but without permission it can get you into trouble.


The T/C ruling and subsequent conversion letter seem to show the T/C is an exception to the rule, for whatever reason that may be.

Their reasoning lies in the definition of a SBR, per NFA'34.
kevins_garage  [Member]
12/6/2009 1:46:06 PM
Originally Posted By Shizzlemah:
The T/C ruling and subsequent conversion letter seem to show the T/C is an exception to the rule, for whatever reason that may be.

That letter shows there is more than just T/C that CAN BE an exception. Apparently ATF has left the door wide open for other manufacturers to offer pistol/rifle kits which could also be exceptions.
Big-Bore  [Team Member]
12/6/2009 3:06:33 PM
But until they do, you're stuck with your AR pistol being a pistol and if you turn it into a rifle it being a rifle from that point on. So what if someone CAN do it later, that doesn't do any of us who have already bought or made our pistols any good at all.
Argue for the sake of arguing if one wants, but if you take your pistol, bought or made, and put a rifle barrel and stock on it, it is a rifle from that point on in the eyes of the ATFE unless you SBR it. Who gives a rat's crap what someone MIGHT be able to do if nobody is doing it? And according to the letter, all of it, not just the small posted part, all the conversion parts have to be in kit form from the manufacturer, not the Joe Blow who threw the things together even if he did buy all the parts at the same time from the same seller.
Shizzlemah  [Team Member]
12/6/2009 4:34:56 PM
Originally Posted By kevins_garage:
Originally Posted By Shizzlemah:
The T/C ruling and subsequent conversion letter seem to show the T/C is an exception to the rule, for whatever reason that may be.

That letter shows there is more than just T/C that CAN BE an exception. Apparently ATF has left the door wide open for other manufacturers to offer pistol/rifle kits which could also be exceptions.


Well, the law (NFA34) says that anything made from a rifle is a SBR. IF ATF says 'ok convert a rifle to a pistol' can you get prosecuted ? Yes you can - because the law is the SBR definition in NFA. ATF does not write the law -nor can they change the law. If your butt gets in front of a jury, you are dead. Here's the definition, here's what he did - end of story. No wiggle room at all.


I agree that the T/C situation of converting and going back makes sense. Same as I would with a glock carbine conversion. The letter about possibilities of an AR conversion kit also makes sense to my brain, but ATF hasn't really been a bright point of logic. I'm not in a hurry to be a poster boy of a hokey NFA conviction.



ETA:
If you want to change and be able to go back, you can go pistol to SBR and then back to pistol. Just not pistol->rifle->pistol.
VaFish  [Member]
12/7/2009 4:46:06 PM
Originally Posted By Big-Bore:
But until they do, you're stuck with your AR pistol being a pistol and if you turn it into a rifle it being a rifle from that point on. So what if someone CAN do it later, that doesn't do any of us who have already bought or made our pistols any good at all.
Argue for the sake of arguing if one wants, but if you take your pistol, bought or made, and put a rifle barrel and stock on it, it is a rifle from that point on in the eyes of the ATFE unless you SBR it. Who gives a rat's crap what someone MIGHT be able to do if nobody is doing it? And according to the letter, all of it, not just the small posted part, all the conversion parts have to be in kit form from the manufacturer, not the Joe Blow who threw the things together even if he did buy all the parts at the same time from the same seller.


A stripped lower can be bought for less than $100.

If you want to turn your AR15 pistol into a rifle and think you may want your pistol back at some point, just buy another stripped lower, either to build the rifle or when you want to build a pistol again.
TX15  [Member]
12/8/2009 9:46:03 PM
So someone tell me how Beretta is marketing this and not saying it is a one way trip? :

Big-Bore  [Team Member]
12/8/2009 10:12:42 PM
The letter linked to above says it all. It is sold by the manufacturer as a KIT. Kits sold by the manufacturer that are specifically designed to be swapped back and forth are OK according to ATFE's logic. But units you put together yourself are forbidden.

I see your point the more I look at that ad. It seems the pistol is not included in the "kit." In that case, it would seem that is in violation of what the ATFE has said about everything needs to be included in the "kit."
Good question. I'd like to hear how the ATFE wiggles out of that one.
TX15  [Member]
12/9/2009 9:57:08 AM
The pistol is not included in the kit
shrikefan  [Team Member]
12/9/2009 1:15:35 PM
Originally Posted By Big-Bore:
The letter linked to above says it all. It is sold by the manufacturer as a KIT. Kits sold by the manufacturer that are specifically designed to be swapped back and forth are OK according to ATFE's logic. But units you put together yourself are forbidden.

I see your point the more I look at that ad. It seems the pistol is not included in the "kit." In that case, it would seem that is in violation of what the ATFE has said about everything needs to be included in the "kit."
Good question. I'd like to hear how the ATFE wiggles out of that one.


No wiggling. They'll just change their mind.

Maybe, just maybe, some manufacturers will band together and take the feds to court again.

ETA - "as an assemblage of parts from a single source" is a broad spectrum statement. I'll bet I can guess which end the ATF will come down on.

Big-Bore  [Team Member]
12/9/2009 6:39:37 PM

No wiggling. They'll just change their mind.

Maybe, just maybe, some manufacturers will band together and take the feds to court again.



Ain't that the truth. I'd be willing to contribute to their legal defense fund!

shrikefan  [Team Member]
12/9/2009 11:11:12 PM
Originally Posted By Big-Bore:

No wiggling. They'll just change their mind.

Maybe, just maybe, some manufacturers will band together and take the feds to court again.



Ain't that the truth. I'd be willing to contribute to their legal defense offense fund!





Me too!

4schitzangiggles  [Team Member]
12/27/2009 11:37:36 AM
I honestly wonder how they can possibly get anything done, well other than make unwitting new members for club fed.

people really wonder why some want to throw the bums out and start anew.

Back to the question about some fudd confusing or "mis-remembering" the SN on the one lower I build as a pistol when the others in consecutive order both above and below it are rifles.
How can I prove that it was never a rifle and that the extra uppers (different barrel lengths) are only for that pistol and not a nefarious scheme to make my rifles more evil and deadly by SBRing them with out the tax stamp?


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Shizzlemah  [Team Member]
12/27/2009 12:06:18 PM
Originally Posted By 4schitzangiggles:
I honestly wonder how they can possibly get anything done, well other than make unwitting new members for club fed.

people really wonder why some want to throw the bums out and start anew.

Back to the question about some fudd confusing or "mis-remembering" the SN on the one lower I build as a pistol when the others in consecutive order both above and below it are rifles.
How can I prove that it was never a rifle you cannot prove it, neither can they and that the extra uppers (different barrel lengths) are only for that pistol and not a nefarious scheme to make my rifles more evil and deadly by SBRing them with out the tax stamp? again, you cannot prove your innocence, but they can convict on the parts alone. If you have a virgin receiver/pistol receiver/SBR for each short upper, you should be fine. Esp with receivers now as low as $60, an extra may not be a bad investment


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gmor  [Member]
12/27/2009 1:01:21 PM
[what is the legality of military pistols ot the past that have detachable stocks (luger, browning hi-power, swedish lahti and others). also the auto ordinance thompson pistol was sold in the past with a vpg, but when recently reintroduced it is offered only with a standard horizontal grip. is some sort of grandfather exemption in effect? have laws or interpretations changed?
Shizzlemah  [Team Member]
12/27/2009 1:07:28 PM
some lugers have been given an exemption by ATF. I believe those are only original lugers equipped with stocks, not applying to aftermarket stocks bolted onto a new luger.
4schitzangiggles  [Team Member]
12/27/2009 1:11:11 PM
So each pistol upper needs a dedicated lower or They can take all of me rifles and send me to jail?
I am only asking because this makes no sense and I am trying to stay out of the fuzzy grey areas.

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4schitzangiggles  [Team Member]
12/27/2009 1:12:09 PM
oh and where can one find those $60 lowers?

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Shizzlemah  [Team Member]
12/27/2009 5:35:49 PM
sorry, my bad, $55.

http://www.rguns.net/rifles/rifles-semiauto-ar15-lowers-556rguns-stripped.shtml#SHARPS
4schitzangiggles  [Team Member]
12/27/2009 10:41:25 PM
wow! thanks for the heads up.

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