AR15.Com Archives
 25 WSSM
DerekR  [Member]
11/1/2004 11:28:40 PM
I am contemplating building a 25 WSSM upper.

I have found barrels, and it from what gather the lower doesnt really matter.

Can I use a normal AR-15 upper? If so, where do I get a bolt carrier and bolt from?
usma89  [Team Member]
11/1/2004 11:31:50 PM
You can use a normal lower. You must get a upper built for the wssm, Oly is making them for 223 and 243wssm. If you want a custom upper I would call Marty at:
http://www.teppojutsu.com/

Dtech1  [Member]
11/2/2004 9:17:27 AM
The upper is different as well as the bolt/carrier

Oly and I are also making them in the .25 WSSM, 6.5/243 WSSM and we have just received the dies for the 7mm and the .300. Should be fun!
green-grizzly  [Member]
11/2/2004 12:11:26 PM
Dtech1:

What are the velocities like for the 6.5, 7mm and 300?
Dtech1  [Member]
11/2/2004 12:26:53 PM
Olympic just received the dies for the .300 and 7mm and as far as I know they have yet to load and shoot those calibers. With the load development that I have done with the .243 and .25 WSSM, it is clear that as you go from the .243 to the .25 bore with the same weight bullets the velocity is much higher on the .25 bullet. (Which is exactly what you would expect, same pressure on a larger base diameter will produce higher velocity, with the appropriate powder) Using that information and applying it to the 7mm and .308 bullet diameter, I am expecting 30-06 velocities or better out of the .300 and velocities that may rival the 7mm Remington magnum out of the 7mm. It's all just abstract prediction for me at this point but by comparing the line from .223 to .25 WSSM those are the velocity ranges I expect.
usma89  [Team Member]
11/2/2004 1:22:23 PM
I think the 6.5wssm would be almost the perfect round. Who is making dies and a reemer for that round?
green-grizzly  [Member]
11/2/2004 1:50:01 PM

Originally Posted By Dtech1:
I am expecting 30-06 velocities or better out of the .300 and velocities that may rival the 7mm Remington magnum out of the 7mm.


Dtech1  [Member]
11/2/2004 2:22:27 PM
The dies I got from Redding and the reamer is made by Clymer. Redding calls the dies: "6.5/.243 WSSM"
DerekR  [Member]
11/2/2004 3:00:48 PM
I dont want a full upper, just the upper reciever and bolt/bolt carrier.

Who would I get just the reciever from?
Dtech1  [Member]
11/2/2004 3:29:07 PM
As far as I know, Olympic is the only company making the bolts or barrel extension. The upper receiver is just a standard flat-top AR-15 receiver that has been modified. (Opened up for the larger barrel extension and the ejection port is opened up for the larger case and a few other minor changes) Because of my very minor roll in helping Olympic with this project I am able to buy the WSSM parts from them but it is my understanding that they are not selling any of the WSSM parts to dealers or the general public, only assembled upper conversions. I can see where this policy may change in the future when supply overtakes demand, but right now, between what I am using for parts and what they are selling as complete uppers, we pretty well keep the shelves bare.

Bottom line: I don't know of anywhere you can buy a bolt, bolt carrier for the WSSM.
m98codered  [Member]
11/4/2004 4:18:47 AM

Originally Posted By Dtech1:
Olympic just received the dies for the .300 and 7mm and as far as I know they have yet to load and shoot those calibers. With the load development that I have done with the .243 and .25 WSSM, it is clear that as you go from the .243 to the .25 bore with the same weight bullets the velocity is much higher on the .25 bullet. (Which is exactly what you would expect, same pressure on a larger base diameter will produce higher velocity, with the appropriate powder) Using that information and applying it to the 7mm and .308 bullet diameter, I am expecting 30-06 velocities or better out of the .300 and velocities that may rival the 7mm Remington magnum out of the 7mm. It's all just abstract prediction for me at this point but by comparing the line from .223 to .25 WSSM those are the velocity ranges I expect.



Dtech1, is the .300 or 7mm heading for the ar-15 platform or the ar10 platform??
DerekR  [Member]
11/4/2004 7:02:18 AM
crap. I guess there goes that project. I see the 243 WSSM just about everywhere.... But I have heard some bad things about that cartridge.

Guess I will just have to wait then and see what happens.
Dtech1  [Member]
11/4/2004 7:04:54 AM
The whole line-up is for the AR-15 platform.
DerekR  [Member]
11/4/2004 8:37:45 PM

The upper is different as well as the bolt/carrier

Oly and I are also making them in the .25 WSSM, 6.5/243 WSSM



So DTech1, what parts are you making, the upper the bolt and the carrier?

I was looking to ask pac-nor barrels about a barrel, with polygon twist.
Dtech1  [Member]
11/4/2004 10:12:12 PM
I don't "manufacture" any of the parts for the WSSM. My, in-house, machining capabilities are much more suited to custom AR building than manufacturing complex parts. I have a couple of good manual lathes (Nardini and Clausing) a Bridgeport mill and a couple of horizontal mills that I use for fluting barrels. I build my own adjustable triggers using raw trigger castings, custom barrel fluting, free float tube ventilating, integral compensators etc. The involvement that I had with Olympic on the WSSM project was minor and involved early logistics rather than manufacturing. I look at my ability to get these parts as a gift, they certainly didn't "need" my help to complete the project, their plate was full and I helped them out a little.
DerekR  [Member]
11/5/2004 12:47:06 AM
Gotcha
Langadune  [Member]
11/17/2004 5:18:28 PM
I'm looking to get a +.23 caliber upper for my AR and am REALLY interested in the new wssm rounds. I've been to the Oly website buy couldn't find anything on these... any help there?
Mardwell  [Member]
11/17/2004 9:27:23 PM
What kind of power were you looking for? I build quite a few of the 6X45s (6mm,223) This is deer leagal in most states and gives you about 30% more energy than the .223. I have take deer with this round but I look at it as a fairly close range deer caliber. I also build uppers for a standar AR-15 lower in the WSSM line. (.223, .243, .25) I have dies and barrel blanks on order for the 7mm abd .300 as well.

I have hunted big-game with both the .243 and .25 WSSMs. Both are more than capable rounds for whitetail for ranges longer than most people are able to shoot. Both have great accuracy potential. All of the testing that I have done with factory ammunition has produced sub-MOA accuracy. With load development and handloading both have been capable of "one hole groups".
Langadune  [Member]
11/17/2004 11:10:46 PM
In Kansas, anything less than .23 caliber (don't know who came up with this) is considered illegal for whitetail deer.

I have an AR15 lower, so .243 wssm seems most viable and desireable for me.
m98codered  [Member]
11/18/2004 2:00:29 AM
Mardwell, you got a website I could visit>??
Mardwell  [Member]
11/18/2004 7:49:43 AM
No website, and I guess I should say I'm not really "building" the WSSM uppers. I am getting complete uppers and "detailing" them after that.
Ky_Bob  [Team Member]
11/18/2004 9:17:15 AM
All I want for Christmas is an AR upper in a .270 - .308 caliber with .308 or better performance.
Unfortunately it looks like NEXT Christmas.
Bob
Dtech1  [Member]
11/18/2004 9:39:45 AM
Mardwell, I was wondering if that was you or not. I was beginning to wonder what you were doing with all those WSSM uppers you were getting.
sbar  [Member]
11/22/2004 4:49:08 PM
Dtech1,

Sent you an email requesting information and pricing on a custom 25 WSSM upper. Let me know if you did not receive.

TIA,
Steve B.
Dtech1  [Member]
11/22/2004 6:43:16 PM
I didn't get an e-mail from you. Try this address: dtech1@paulbunyan.net
raco2000  [Member]
11/25/2004 11:32:54 AM
DEREKR, You say you have heard some bad things about the .243 WSSM. What have you heard? I was considering this for a deer rifle and would be interested in what uou have to say
Ky_Bob  [Team Member]
11/25/2004 11:40:27 AM

Originally Posted By raco2000:
DEREKR, You say you have heard some bad things about the .243 WSSM. What have you heard? I was considering this for a deer rifle and would be interested in what uou have to say



Short barrel life was one thing I read in another thread a month ago or so.

Bob
Dtech1  [Member]
11/25/2004 12:26:09 PM
With the .223 WSSM and a chrome-moly barrel I think your barrel life would be quite short. As you move up the line (.223,.243,.25) and use a quality barrel, the life will get much better. Even on the larger bore WSSMs, if you shoot the real light bullets at scorching velocities you will get shorter barrel life. Most people that want an upper with more guts than the .223 Rem. get it for longer range shooting. That being the case, the light bullets are nothing to use anyway. On the .243 WSSM I have shot bullets as light as 68-70 grain, but the lightest that I USE for varminting is the 87 grain bullet. With the velocity that I'm driving an 87 grain bullet down a 416F stainless barrel, the barrel will last for thousands of rounds.
grinch  [Member]
11/25/2004 1:04:29 PM
whats the magazine capacity going to be??
AZ-K9  [Team Member]
11/25/2004 1:08:12 PM
What .30 round are we talking about???? 30WSSM or 30WSM.... Havent heard about the WSSM specs, and the WSM is too long for the AR platform.
Dtech1  [Member]
11/25/2004 2:45:04 PM
Right now I am using 20 round .223 mags and after modification they hold 8 WSSM rounds. I have just changed how I am modifying the follower to make them more duruble and 8 rounds are tight but function fine. I have had several requests for "low cap" mags for use in Canada and states with limits on mag capacity for big-game. For those mags I have been using 10 round .223 mags, after modification they will hold 4 WSSM rounds.

The .300 round we were talking about is based off of the .243 WSSM necked up to .308. Right now it's called the "Olympic Magnum" but I am hoping that Winchester will adopt the 7mm and the .300 and make it part of the WSSM line-up.
AZ-K9  [Team Member]
11/25/2004 4:22:59 PM
Color me interested!
Dtech1  [Member]
11/25/2004 5:53:51 PM
I'll keep you guys up to date on the project. When I get the barrel blanks and get some load development done I will let you know.
loonybin  [Member]
11/28/2004 2:00:47 AM
OK, now I'm really interested. If I move to TN next year, I'll need a larger caliber, as my little ol' .223 isn't considered enough cartridge to kill a deer. Nevermind that Nebraska deer are larger, and I did just fine on one last week. That 25WSSM is supposed to be equivalent in velocity and energy to the 25-06, which is more than enough for deer out to 300yds, so that's what I'm looking at.
protozo1  [Member]
11/28/2004 2:10:22 AM
As far as the .300 wsm, I know SSK industies is making uppers for that round in the ar-10 platform. The preformance is a bit better than a .300 winchester mag.
Dtech1  [Member]
11/28/2004 8:35:07 AM
Yes, either the .25 or the .243 WSSM would fill the bill for deer. I ended up getting two deer with the .25 and one with the .243 this season. I think the .243, if you handload, is a better all around caliber. The 6mm has a great bullet selection for varmint and big-game. If you are going to buy factory, then I think the .25 WSSM has the edge for big-game. When I was starting to test the .25 uppers I was building, I was unable to get brass to do my own loading. I bought a couple of boxes of Winchester 120 expanding point. I tested 3 uppers @ 100 yards, the largest group was .720" and the smallest was about .340" and chronographed @ just under 3000 fps (2987) Pretty tough to beat out of an AR-15!
Thegman  [Member]
12/20/2004 1:47:33 AM
Hi,

Would anyone here care to speculate how a 358 WSSM might function in an AR platform. I'm thinking it might be similar to a 358 Winchester, but from an AR.

Would the longer 35 caliber bullets start presenting a problem with case space or magazine length?

Would the round beat the AR to death?

Thanks.
Dtech1  [Member]
12/20/2004 7:47:42 AM
When things settle down I will probably chamber one in the .358. I would expect velocities higher than the .358 Win. by 3-400 FPS. All of the other WSSMs are following that trend. I'm putting out a .25 cal. 120 grain at just under 3000 fps! I have done several of the .358 Winchesters on the AR-10 platform.

I don't think there is going to be a problem as far as "beating up the AR-15" So-far I have not even needed an adjustable gas block. The recoil is just a fraction of what you would get out of a bolt gun.
Thegman  [Member]
12/22/2004 1:11:05 AM
Thanks for the reply Dtech1,

I've been wanting to build a lightweight, all around Alaska roaming/packing/hunting rifle, and this might be a better and lighter route than most bolt rifles. I think I'll go in this direction. Any suggestions on an light but strong lower for a 358 WSSM upper? Will the carbon lowers work?
Dtech1  [Member]
12/22/2004 7:33:30 AM
I don't have any working knowledge of the carbon lowers. I don't thing I've had one in my hands for more than just a glance. I would just use a standard lower and a fluted 16" barrel. There is going to be a limit to how light you can make it.











m98codered  [Member]
12/23/2004 1:20:28 AM
TAGGEDDDD
killforfood  [Member]
1/4/2005 6:38:13 PM
Dtech1,
This all seems amazing to me that in the near future the AR could have two new calibers both of which would be suitible for Elk, and not just short range ballistics but near magnum velocities!
Seriously are you pulling our leg when you speculate that the 7MM Olympic will be close to 7MM Magnum velocities? If this all turns out to be true I may have to retire my trusty old 1950 FN Mauser.
I may even have to sell my preban Hbar to finance a new AR WSSM.
Can you imagine the looks I'll get in Deer or Elk camp?
I can hear it now "What are you gonna shoot with that squirrel rifle?". At which time I would challenge them all to shoot this pop can at about 300 yards. OK enough dreaming.
When and where can we see the first results for these new calibers? And could you please send me a price list for a .243 WSSM.
Thanks, Joel M.
Dtech1  [Member]
1/4/2005 9:39:22 PM
killforfood, I still have not gotten the barrel blanks so I have not shot them over the chronograph yet. I will tell you where and how I came up with the velocities and you can take it from there.

I have built all of the WSSM cartridges plus the 6.5/.243 WSSM wildcat. The pressure that the WSSM case is built for is much higher than that of a normal cartridge (like a .308 Win. or .243 Win) Pressure is the limiting factor behind velocity, if you could run higher pressures in the .308, you would be able to get higher velocity out of it. The other piece of the puzzle is the base area of the bullet. If you consider that the whole WSSM line runs at the same elevated pressure then applying that pressure to a larger bullet base area should produce higher energy. An example: I launch a 85 grain bullet out of a .243 WSSM at about 3350 fps but out of a .25 WSSM a 85 grain bullet is traveling at about 3550 fps. Same pressure, faster burning powder, same grain-weight bullet, more velocity. The 120 grain bullet out of the .25 WSSM is leaving a 22" barrel at just under 3000 fps. As the bore size goes up the velocity difference between the WSSM line and their lower-pressure counterpart leans more toward the long-action than the short-action. The .25 WSSM is basically 25-06 velocities and I believe that if my theory holds, the 7mm and .300 will surpass the long-action counterpart and close in on the magnums.

That's what I have based my statements on, time will tell. If you have any questions feel free to e-mail me. dtech1@paulbunyan.net

m98codered  [Member]
1/6/2005 4:48:57 AM
I'm just waiting to do my taxes....hummmm....which upper.....25wssm or 7mm or .300 damnnnnnnnnnnnn......I'm so hyped up about all these new cals for the ar......
ANYBODY ever wanted A UNIVERSAL RIFLE???
killforfood  [Member]
1/6/2005 4:06:15 PM
This should really give the AR-10 .308 variants a real run for their money. I always wanted one of the bigger AR's but they cost so much more, they weigh 2 to 3 pounds more and they don't interchange with my existing AR-15's. These two new Olympic Arms calibers could just possibly solve all of these issues. Now if they can just get Winchester to pick these up as a continuation of their current line of WSSM cartridges. My personal interest would be to use it for hunting but with Olympics reputation for extreme accuracy I'm sure there are are quite a few competition shooters who would love a cartridge for their AR's that would buck the wind better at longer ranges. hopefully by this time next year there will be a thread with pictures of all the big game animals that were taken with the new 7MM WSSM and or 300 WSSM. Olympic arms should give a prize to the first guy to legally wack an Elk with one of the new cartridges.
Joel.
Dtech1  [Member]
1/6/2005 5:59:43 PM
I agree. I shoot the AR for as much of my hunting as I can. I love the AR platform, I feel confident with it. This year I shot 3 northern whitetail with my AR in the WSSM line. One of them was a MONSTER and it went down like you turned off a switch! I have got several thousand rounds of the WSSM line down-range and I still get surprized from time to time at the energy that they have.

usma89  [Team Member]
1/6/2005 7:22:53 PM
My bolt smith and AR guy both have a 30wssm die, that would be interesting...
Wirebrush  [Member]
1/7/2005 12:25:52 AM

Originally Posted By Dtech1:

The .300 round we were talking about is based off of the .243 WSSM necked up to .308. Right now it's called the "Olympic Magnum" but I am hoping that Winchester will adopt the 7mm and the .300 and make it part of the WSSM line-up.



I spoke with someone at Olympic a few days ago about the 308 Olympic mag. I was told that they are having problems with a couple of their "machines" which is delaying things. He also said something about problems with Winchester that may require courts to iron out.
m98codered  [Member]
1/7/2005 4:16:08 AM
how about having an ar in 300wssm as a backup rifle if hunting in Alaska....someone carries a 338 and I carry an ar loaded with 15rds or so of 30wssm...if a grizz can take 15 to the frontal zone--it may do as it wishes
killforfood  [Member]
1/7/2005 12:05:42 PM
M98codered,
If all else fails you might try the method for surviving a serious lion mauling prescribed by, I think it was Peter Hathaway Capstick? "Feed him arms and legs as SLOWLY as possible then kick him in the knackers.
Most guides prefer you not bring anything under powered for defense against bear attacks. The first ten or twenty rounds will just antagonize him into attacking you. They will suggest you remove all the rounds except one for when the pain becomes to great.
truthfully though I think if Dtech1's guesstimations are correct, the .308 OLY should be up to the task of dispatching even the biggest game of North America. Depending of course on what velocities can be achieved with the heavier bullet weights. My main concern would be using 180 grain bullets that would require very deep seating, robbing us of our very precious powder capacity.
Well time will tell.
Patiently waiting.
Joel.
Dtech1  [Member]
1/7/2005 12:19:03 PM
killforfood, The bullet seating/powder capacity is an issue that I have been pondering as well. In the case that you are talking about you could use a rund-nose or flat-nose bullet and gain a LOT of room in the magazine and case. If you aren't worried about 600 yard shooting the round-nose would be a great choice.